Gene Packwood
The Rev. Canon Gene Packwood was born in New Zealand and immigrated to Canada in 1974 with his wife, Judy. He served 2 parishes in the Diocese of Calgary for 22 years before retiring in 2014. He blogs at GENEralities (kiwirev.blogspot.ca), and recently spoke with Sharon Dewey Hetke about the work of the Holy Spirit, and his hopes and concerns for our Church.
TAP: You are the Director of Anglican Renewal Ministries, which has a major emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Can you tell us how that started for you personally?
GP: Well, my experience started before I was ordained: some people at my church had told me about their experience with the Holy Spirit. And we had been praying together on Wednesday nights for some years – we prayed and fasted and shared and grew in the faith. It was lovely. Out of that somebody gave me Dennis Bennet’s book 9:00 O’clock in the Morning. I was working in television at the time and traveling to Edmonton and read it in the back seat of a van. When we got to Edmonton, I went to my hotel room and got down on my knees. I had just been reading about the gift of tongues and all these things that happened to Dennis Bennett, and I prayed with great fervour that the Lord would release them in me. Of course, nothing happened, at least not that I could tell. But I continued to be interested in the prayer language thing and had prayed with varying degrees of earnestness for that. And one night somebody prayed in our prayer group that inhibitions would be dropped. I had tried praying in tongues, but it was never fluent, and it didn’t go anywhere. But all of a sudden there was this fluid stream of syllables. And I didn’t say anything to anybody. When I left for home I wanted to know if it was still there, and it was, and then I have to say, although there were no bells that went off and no bright lights or anything, I felt profoundly that the Lord had touched me, he granted me that blessing. It was one of the defining moments in my faith life. I felt that he had just quietly given me the nudge. And so since then, it’s just been a great comfort to use that heavenly language – under my breath as I serve communion and as I walk from hospital room to hospital room. Because one of the things I discovered in ordained ministry is that most of the time I had no idea what I was doing; I trusted that God was going before me and he would do what he would do.
TAP: And did that lead you into ARM? GP: I got to go to what ARM used to call a Leadership Training Institute back in the early 90s, not long after I was ordained. And the presenters were Robin Guinness from Montreal and Murray Henderson, who was from Winnipeg at that time. And I’ll never forget it.
That experience showed me how things charismatic could be presented in an Anglican parish setting with liturgy and all that. And I think that although the Holy Spirit appears in the prayer books and is mentioned in our worship, I don’t think many people have had the opportunity to realize what he represents and what He can do for the church.
TAP: As I’m sure you know the charismatic movement has its critics: some are concerned that it represents a shifting away from Biblical authority to a more experiential realm. Now the charismatic Anglicans that I know seem to be very grounded in Scripture, but maybe you can respond to that criticism that still is out there.
GP: It is and it’s true. The thing is, with some of the manifestations and excesses that have happened, there’s always going to be a danger of the world, the flesh and the devil mixed in with it all. But I think that Anglicans can be “cautiously charismatic.” People have said “Aren’t you afraid of the fire?” And someone said, “Well, yes, but I’m more afraid of no fire at all.” And my sense is that for our Anglican church, we need another awakening. We need another touch of God’s spirit at work in palpable, unmistakable ways. And if and when that happens, there’s going to be mistakes. But when you look back at the great awakenings in the 18th and 19th centuries, marvelous things happen. When you think of how William Wilberforce and John Wesley were launched into new, powerful ministries through the movement of God in revival, I think the blessings far outweigh the difficulties. So I see ARM as an organization that is to raise consciousness and allay fear, basically. And to try and encourage people to take God at his word.
TAP: You, and ARM, have been at many General Synods as a prayerful presence and witness.
GP: Things are different now. The conservative moment must have felt in some ways much stronger in past years than it does now. You’ve stayed throughout that whole period while many people have made the choice to leave – has that been discouraging?
GP: Yes, that’s been a challenge for a long time. But I guess what I’ve felt throughout it all is that while sometimes I think I’d like to have jumped, I don’t feel like God’s given me permission to leave my post. And even as a retired priest, I still have not got that permission – and it has been discouraging. I’m even a little angry about it all, but I’m also aware that Jeremiah didn’t leave. I think it’s possible that God has said to people, “You know, I think I want you to leave” or even in his mercy saying, “Okay, you can go” but I don’t think he has said that to me yet.
TAP: Do you feel you have a responsibility to stay?
GP: I do in a way…but, you know, anything that I’ve achieved or any influence I’ve had is invisible to me. I’ve stood up at General Synod and made the case and so on. But I’ve never felt that it swayed opinion. Still it just seems to me that if we go over the edge, then the truth of the Gospel, what I believe that is, and biblical faith, needs to have been said, and I hope it’s kind of ringing in people’s ears.
TAP: You’re not a cradle Anglican, can you tell us how you came to love the Anglican way of worshipping?
GP: I married an Anglican and I was deeply suspicious of praying out of books and that sort of stuff. I just thought, if you really believe you should be able to just pray right off the cuff, right? Why would you need a book? But my wife, Jude, before we were married, would go to Evensong at the Cathedral in Dunedin in New Zealand – and I would go to Evensong too, just to be with her. And then gradually over time while working in television drama, I was working with people who put on costumes and operated from scripts. And the story was all-important. One day I realized, wait a minute, liturgy is like drama: we put on costumes, we operate from a script. And it doesn’t mean that it’s not true – it just means that it’s a really organized way of keeping us on track, basically. And the whole idea of it being a drama, I mean, it is! They talk about the story of salvation history and that narrative. And so, okay, we’re physical people who touch and taste and see and feel, and so standing and sitting and kneeling and bread and wine and all that, that’s all part of what’s brilliant about being Anglican. Like a reformed smoker, I became a huge fan. So now I’ve been writing things on the Holy Spirit in the Prayer Book: I just think that the Prayer Book is brilliant; it’s an absolutely trustworthy way of Scripture set to prayer. And I would just like to raise awareness about the Holy Spirit in there. I mean, when you think about it, the Benedictus is a prophetic word. It’s a charismatic, prophetic word that the Holy Spirit gave to Zechariah. So was the Nunc Dimittis – they’re charismatic utterances.
TAP: I like the way you’re putting that because we were talking about grounding the charismatic movement in scripture. Well, you’re actually locating it right there. The Spirit is something that’s moving in between the words and it’s not “apart from”…
GP: Yes, and I’ve gone through my Bible just underlining all the references to the Holy Spirit. It’s fascinating to see because even if you look back in Exodus it talks about the guys that were gifted in design and embroidery and working with metals, and it says it was a gift of the Spirit that gave them the ability to do that. So I think, for example, these wonderful women in the altar guild who make banners, that’s a gift of the Spirit! That’s a charismatic gift, and I would like to be able to go around and tell them that: “Look, this is not just grunt work you’re doing here. This is spirit-filled work.”
TAP: Does every charismatic person speak in tongues? Also, I noticed you connected tongues with “baptism of the Spirit” but then said, “…or the Spirit was released in you.”
GP: Well, “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is a Biblical term. But it seems to happen in different ways. There is also a term called the “release of the Spirit.” And of course there’s controversy over what they mean and whether you can use them. We have different views within our Board on whether everybody speaks in tongues or not. Paul says “No.” Right? In fact there have been prominent figures in the whole movement who never ever received a prayer language. So that would seem to me to attest to the fact that not everybody does. I can only speak from my experience. I don’t know why I got it, but it’s been a blessing. I mean someone could say, “Oh, you just figured it out” – like it’s a coincidence or whatever. Or I can choose to believe that God touched me and I choose to believe that. But I think if you look at Paul and you look at Ist Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 it says, “Earnestly desire the spiritual gifts.” Well, I think people need to be reminded of that, especially that you may prophesy. Now there’s teaching that needs to happen with that too. First, the purpose is to strengthen and encourage and comfort. It’s to bless people; it’s to build up the church. The problem is, then you get into situations where some people get envious or others think “I’m more spiritual than you.” That’s where the world, the flesh and the devil come in. So we are playing with fire, but I believe it can be managed with good teaching and good sound leadership. And I think personally that the Anglican world is a great world to do that in because of what we’ve got.
TAP: So going back to General Synod, what are your hopes and your concerns for our church as we enter that week in July?
GP: I would like that Motion with regard to changing the Marriage Canon not to pass. But the problem is it’s not going to go away, right? Next synod we’ll have another run at it. I don’t see a way to manage that really in a helpful way that’s going to result in anything that’s not going to prolong the agony. So I hope that it doesn’t pass, but I suppose if I want to pray big and make the “big ask,” I would like God to move in another awakening – one that would change people’s minds and turn them around. When you read about people lined up to repent of their sins in those previous awakenings, people’s lives were changed and it wasn’t because of a program – you just couldn’t keep people away. They were wanting to get right with God. I would love to see that happen. And I would love to see that if that happened, that the traditionalists wouldn’t say, “See, I told you so.” That there would just be a welcoming and an enjoyment together of the presence of God and his goodness. But unfortunately there will probably be some crowing either way.
And back to the discussion about staying in the Church, I think that any sense of leaving for me would not be about denying myself and taking up my cross, at the moment. To leave, for me, would be more out of pride and, you know, “harrumphing,” and not healthy really. I have to confess that I don’t want to lose. But I’m aware that our job is not necessarily to win: the Lord will win. TAP
